"parents of ghislaine maxwell's 'lieutenant' sarah kellen worry their daughter will be arrested and charged in epstein's child sex trafficking ring, as they claim teen was 'brainwashed.
quote: but with concerns mounting over her behavior, kellen was disfellowshipped, a disciplinary sanction whereby she was expelled from the church and ostracized by its members, including her own family.‘it was all handled out there.
it’s very private, there’s a committee that meets and they go over everything.
So....they raised their child to blindly obey authority figures (men) without asking questions, they let her marry at age 17, and shunned her from age 18.
No shit she was vulnerable to being brainwashed and manipulated. It was all she ever knew and had learned to accept as normal.
These parents did a shit job, and can't just rectify that with a single interview decades later.
2020-07-10--announcement.
(2 letters--one in english and one in spanish.).
use of messaging apps to share video files:.
What legal entity issued that announcement letter?
If it's not the same entity as the one that holds the copyright to the JW videos, they may be encouraging elders to break the copyrights to those videos. That may be useful in (future) copyrights cases.
And/or this letter proves that the different legal entities used by JW (such as CCJW and WT NY and WT PA) do in fact interact and have access to each other's resources and materials (something they tried to deny in a CSA court case before).
i was bored to death this sunday, and suddenly i remembered that it could be worse if having to attend the public meeting on a sunday, even worse, not being assigned to the sound department, accomodating, being the mic guy, or reading the wt at the platform... then i realized that i hated just "attending" and sitting at meetings, those "privileges" were the only thing i enjoyed and made my last months inside bearable.... did you enjoy these assignments?
Oh yeah!
When I was 18 (and still unbaptised) we moved. In the new congregation they quickly gave me some tasks such as manning sound dept. and roving the mics. In the old congregation such important spiritual privileges were strictly for baptised men, but in the new congregation every boy in good standing from age 15/16 and up could join in the fun. (I guess they tried to encourage the boys to participate and join the JW for real. And maybe one elder having a 16 year old unbaptised son played part in that).
Anyway, it was always good fun, standing at the back with the mics, chatting or joking with the other young bros.
Being a Watchtower reader was also a good thing, made the time pass much faster. Bonus points for not even having the right WT with me, let alone having ever seen it before, and still get praise from elders 'because you preprared the reading so well'.
For conventions it started with building the podium the day before convention started. Always good fun with the young crowd.
And during conventions tried to stack as many 'privileges' as possible.
So started with parking duty (for obviously no JW can find a parking spot all by themselves! I wonder how large worldly events ever manage parking with zero to none parking attendants???). Always very nice except in the pouring rain. But at least we got to enter the hall early and get nice seats.
The parking job also included a guard duty during the program. I always asked to have these halfway the afternoon. Otherwise I'd sleep anyway.
And I got lucky in that I also got to be an attendant for the main entrance, which meant another shift to get out of my chair. Preferably in the morning.
And so every convention day I was in my seat only half the time. Better than to sit and listen, even when full PIMI...
oil and gas are from organisms plants and animal that used sunlight for food.
so in essence we are all running solar.
.
I don't think Nuclear is sun based.
All atoms and elements found on Earth were forged in the nuclear ovens of (long dead) stars.
So in a way even nuclear power in 'sun' (star) based.
Of course the real question is not whether or not the energy we use is Sun-based or not.
The important question is: does the energy we use destroy our planet or not, and is it sustainable long-term?
at what time would you say that the watch tower schema lost the spirit?.
like the ancient nation of israel which struggled maintaining divine blessing due to a long series of grave errors that eventually culminated in definitive loss... how and when did watch tower lose the spirit?.
can we pinpoint a time or event?.
@Sea Breeze,
If a person tries to assume that the universe is self existing and uncreated, that is illogical because we observe cause and effect in it as well as an expanding universe which indicates a beginning by simply rolling the clock back.
Is it more illogical to say that the universe is self existing and uncreated, than to claim some Creator is self existing and uncreated?
Why?
Do cause and effect exist outside our universe?
How do we know?
A First Cause existing outside (and inside) of our time dilation is a more consistent view than other competing views.
Can you please define what exactly you mean by 'First Cause'?
Is it a natural process? A person? What properties and attributes does this First Cause have?
First of all, I think atheists/materialists believe in immaterial things all the time. In your efforts to explain your attraction to materialism you used a number of immaterial things.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't say I don't believe in anything immaterial per se. I said "I don't see any reason to believe in anything for which no evidence seems to exists, or which effects on our physical world can not be measured or confirmed in any way."
All the phenomenon you mention as examples can be measured or have a detectable effect on our physical world.
And I have to disagree with your claim that none of these things are physical:
- Consciousness is not physical
How do we know this?
Is there any evidence that any consciousness can exist without at least a physical foundation?
What happens with a person's consciousness when their brain matter is disturbed? Does rearranging the physical brain matter influence their consciousness? Why (not)?
Could it be that (human) consciousness is not an a-physical / transcendent phenomenon, but an emergent property of brains?
Information is not physical.
How do we know?
Is there any evidence any type of information can exist without being stored in any type of physical carrier?
Logic, Reason, Ideas, Concepts, Morality, Codes, Truth and untruth are not physical.
These are all variations on the same theme.
Would any of these exist if (human) minds/consciousness would not exist?
Thus, do all these phenomenon lean as much on the existence of (brain) matter as consciousness itself might?
Time is not physical
Does time exist outside our physical universe? (And how do you know?)
What's your view of the concept of space-time in physics, as follows from Einstein's theories of relativity?
Furthermore, if as I assert that a Transcendent First Cause (Uncaused Spirit) is a better explanation than assuming a self existing, uncaused universe
Why would an Uncaused Spirit be a better explanation for our existence than an Uncaused Universe / Uncaused Singularity?
And more importantly, we can all assert anything we want. But how do we know which assertion is (in)correct?
Does it matter whether or not an assertion is true?
By what means can an assertion be verified or rejected?
at what time would you say that the watch tower schema lost the spirit?.
like the ancient nation of israel which struggled maintaining divine blessing due to a long series of grave errors that eventually culminated in definitive loss... how and when did watch tower lose the spirit?.
can we pinpoint a time or event?.
@Sea Breeze,
When I was still a JW I came across a conversation between a theist and an atheist.
Theist claimed: life, the universe are way too complex to come into existence by chance/accident. Therefore a Creator must exist.
Atheist replied: A Creator must be at least as complex. Therefore the Creator must have a Creator too...and so on and so on. If an exception is made for the Creator (is complex but doesn't need a Creator) you should at least accept that we can apply that exception to the universe as well.
This struck a chord with me.
One of the main arguments for me believing in Jehovah was the whole "every house has a builder". And now I had to find something more, as that argument didn't seem to hold up by itself anymore.
So I set out to find evidence (testable, objective) evidence that would confirm my beliefs were true.
I sought evidence that shows Jehovah must exist. Found none.
I sought evidence Adam and Eve were created around 6000 years ago. Only found a lot of evidence that showed this story wrong.
Same with Noah's flood around 4000 years ago.
Evidence that shows the Bible is inspired, or at least without contradictions, mistakes or misinformation....only found evidence that shows the Bible is anything but flawless or inspired.
Lacking any evidence to properly support my religious beliefs, these beliefs vanished.
What was left was no belief in any gods, aka atheism.
Interestingly, I have always believed JW are very rational believers whose beliefs are based on evidence (unlike other believers, who 'just believe'). This is also the Watchtower narrative. Sadly enough, JW may be even more 'just believing' than some of the more sophisticated believers out there.
And JWism seems to be very Materialistic to me too. Living creatures don't have a soul, miracles are often sort of explained by invoking natural or physic processes applied by God at just the right time and place.
Anyway, it's not that Materialism atttacts me per se. It's just that I don't see any reason to believe in anything for which no evidence seems to exists, or which effects on our physical world can not be measured or confirmed in any way. Whether or not matter as we know it is all there is and what makes us us doesn't really matter then.
I don't believe in any gods for the same reason monotheists believe in all 'other' gods.
After I became an atheist I have read Pure Christianity and Why Materialism is Baloney. Both were utterly unconvincing to me.
What problems with a materialistic worldview do you think are most problematic?
What alternative worldview do you think is more useful or correct?
at what time would you say that the watch tower schema lost the spirit?.
like the ancient nation of israel which struggled maintaining divine blessing due to a long series of grave errors that eventually culminated in definitive loss... how and when did watch tower lose the spirit?.
can we pinpoint a time or event?.
One premise can heap blame upon self.
The other premise allows us to blame Watch Tower.
This is a false dichotomy, and unhelpful too.
I am now an atheist. I do not believe in any kind of spiritual entities. And I can still blame Watchtower for deceiving me with lies and half-truths, and blame them for taking JWs minds hostage.
With or without 'the spirit' Watchtower can still be blamed for what they do.
And (former) JW can also still wonder what biases and flawed mental processes made them join or stay. Once they recognize the mechanics of that, they are better equipped to not fall for something similar later.
Watch Tower lost the spirit...
Blame Watch Tower, not yourself.
This is an important valid coping mechanism for those of us that have suffered stigma and abuse at the hands Watch Tower.
Is it really helpful for people to continue believing half of what harmed them before?
Those who continue to believe in 'the spirit' and Watchtower having it at some point in time, may fall for the same trap again: they may join yet another (harmful) religion that claims to be the sole possessor of 'the spirit'. Or they may go back to Watchtower if they perceive JW 'have the spirit' back again some time from now.
Either 'the spirit' exists or not. If not, it's not helpful to pretend it does.
If 'the spirit' does exist, some evidence about its whereabouts and activities would be welcome.
You're right though in that some ways to approach (doubting) JW may be more helpful than others. It heavily depends on the person though. Some may be sensistive to contemplating whether or not Watchtower 'has the spirit' as you suggest. Others are more sensitive to other topics, such as evidence that mankind existed long before 4026BC, dishonesty and coverups, (lack of) evidence for the existence of JHWH, evidence for the (lack of) divine inspiration of the Bible, etc.
There is no 'one size fits all' approach.
dress up for the show.
... and now please be seated.
proudly presenting your 2020 convention program.. ... and, thank god, for the ff button on my player.
Most likely devout JWS will wear their meeting cloth while watching the video.
Yes, they will (and must). Elders have also been doing the rounds handing everyone their convention name badge....and the Dubs will wear those too! Apparently the convention program will be so dull and mind numbing that Dubs will even forget their spouse's name by watching...
dress up for the show.
... and now please be seated.
proudly presenting your 2020 convention program.. ... and, thank god, for the ff button on my player.
2021 no convention, too
For now Watchtower has only canceled the 2021 international and special conventions. No word yet about regular conventions.
at what time would you say that the watch tower schema lost the spirit?.
like the ancient nation of israel which struggled maintaining divine blessing due to a long series of grave errors that eventually culminated in definitive loss... how and when did watch tower lose the spirit?.
can we pinpoint a time or event?.
Please do not reply with 'JWs never had the spirit'....
Ok.
What convinces you Watchtower at some time in the past 'had the spirit'?
What exactly does it mean to 'have the spirit'?
What convinces you Watchtower doesn't 'have the spirit' now?
